Okay, so with the wonderful weather we are having at the moment, the summer weather argument is likely to rear its head - as it always does. And whilst I can see some obvious benefits, I can also see far too many obstacles.

Not wanting to go into the pros/cons of summer football, we all know what they are..

Pro's: weather, lighter nights mean more midweek games.
Con's: players/coaches summer breaks, councils close, and that the parks won't repair through the winter months.

So what I'm wondering is what ELSE could be done to improve the game as it currently is - lets take it that summer football isn't an option, what else can be done?

Naturally, more 3G parks would be great, but we know the financial restraints councils are faced with... We won't see enough 3g parks in a short enough time to resolve anything IMO.

So how do we deal with a fixture backlog...? Using my club as an example, we played an obscene amount of games at end of last season (11 in may alone). And this season we've only played 3 league games. We've still got the 2nd round of the west to play and with the Scottish 5th in for the 7th January... We could potentially not play a game till the middle of February at earliest IF (a big if) we win our 2nd/3rd/4th west of scotland cup ties.

I personally think that maybe the 3strike rule needs to be looked at, have some sort of compromise... Maybe you get 1 strike and then after that if the opposition club can get 3G - maybe it should go ahead there? I know we can often get a 3G park and have in the past offered use of it to our opponents who have refused. My opinion is that the refusal to play games, coupled with the 3 strike rule is causing less games to be played than the weather.

Perhaps the scottish regional fixtures could be brought forward a lot earlier... So by the time the 3/4/5th rounds are played its a few months earlier? It seems to me that it's the major cups which are causing the massive delays in games...

But what else? Maybe summer football is a bridge too far, but what about just shifting the league back 1 month... Start in July, finish in April. Keep may exclusively for major cup semis and finals? It wouldn't require too much of an adjustment from the councils, and still gives a solid period of repair time for the parks.

I suppose the only other thing... I can think... Is the £300k the safa has In the bank could be invested in some 3G facilities for exclusive use by amateur teams, day and night. This would allow for permanent evening games mon-fri, all day Saturday and all day Sunday's. Means there are no local 7s being played on it, no teams using it for training...! Could have 2 games back to back every night, 4 on a Saturday and 4 on a Sunday. Subsidised prices could be offered to clubs helping them - as we all know finances are the biggie for clubs these days, but being subsidised still means the safa will still be taking money back in... They'll get the money back eventually. After all more games means more bookings/sending offs! :p

Thoughts anyone? Bit of a ramble so well done if you got to the end!

Ta

i think startin the league a month earlier would be the way to go forward it would certainly help clear up some of the backlog that teams are faced with come the end of the season. the 3g idea is a good 1 aswell but eventually teams would start moanin about not gettin access to the pitches for training. we really are in need of more 3g pitches.

I agree the lack of 3G pitches is the the main issue, we could also help as you said with the season starting a month earlier, I also feel there are too many cups to compete for, If we drop one of the cup competitions that would also ease the burden, I know as manager of my club the league is my priority then the 2 majors (Scottish and West), I will probably "rotate" my squad for the other cups as they are not our proirity unless you get to the semi's ha ha ha.

Its all down to the lack of facilities Dougie, although its getting a little better, demand far out weighs supply.

Good topic but im afraid there are no quick fixes.

cheers.

First off ill give you my thoughts Glasgow city counsel are making a fortune from these 3G parks why are they not investing money back into building more facilities that we all pay for

Dougie, all fair points, but if we don't try summer football we'll never know? To be fair to my collegues in Ayrshire I didn't bring this point up at the last monthly meeting, but my paitence snapped last weekend after another call-off and this weekend we have had to reverse a fixture just to get it played. My frusatration as many, if with the local council where the maintenance and basic up keep of the public parks have been non-existent for the past 3 years.

Therefore at the moment my club is in constant competition with other local teams to get a hold of one pitch at inverclyde sports centre in Largs, which is an excellent all weather grass pitch and £30 more expensive than the public parks.

Lets have it right, the last 3 winters have not been good and trying to get hold of 3g parks is difficult enough but some clubs can't afford it, so fair play to the suggestion of amateur only 3g facilities.

As for the argument of the grass and pitches not repairing through winter, I don't buy that B/S!
I think playing during the summer would even take away the need for midweek fixtures as games are more likely to be on at weekends. We need to improve relationships with respective local councils to possibly get parks open during the summer on saturday afternoon's.

I also understand that summer is obviously when most guys go to the canaries, but i'd rather have a team selection problem than have no game at all! But I think the easiest solution at present is to start the season at least 1 month earlier for reasons already highlighted previously. Better to do something than nothing, and i'm glad the topic has shown interest.

Trying to move to summer football (March to October?) is a lot easier said than done. An earlier start to make much of an impact would probably mean kicking off mid July. That sounds easier to achieve than the summer football option and you might be able to have a mid season break covering December and January. Just a thought!

There's a saying...

'A camel is a horse designed by committee'

Simply meant, if you try to please everyone you end up with nothing like the original idea suiting less people than originally intended. Whilst I agree a healthy debate is great for this subject, I do feel that if anything is about to change it should be done by a select few. What ever changes are made will not appease everyone, therefore decisions have to be made which suit the most... Not the best, or biggest. But the most.

In my humble opinion, clubs are struggling as it is with a host of clubs already going to the wall this season without the outlay of 3G facilities. It is this which makes me think that 3G isn't the answer... What also has to be taken into consideration with 3G is that most facilities I am aware of need cancellations in 2/3 days prior to the booking day. Whilst I understand their need for this as it allows them to replace the booking, it does mean teams are faced with a gamble at time when it comes to looking for friendlies, or indeed the weather. E.G) we have snow yesterday, for all we knew it could have rained overnight and all would have been well today - but it's a risk.

I also don't feel that out and out summer football will fix things, for me, to have the council who are already doing as little as they can, move their opening seasons is far too much of an ask. Because, this is something that all leagues across Scotland would have to abide by I'd imagine in order to enter the nationals... Ect. I can't see EVERY council moving...

Therefore, moving to start the season early even by a few weeks seems the only potentially viable alternative. With the leagues putting on plenty of midweek games too.

On the note of the SAFA having so much money in the bank, am I the only person who this angers? Why do they have so much sitting there when teams struggle to pay for almost everything. The players are paying for the sheer pleasure of competitive football, the coaches and management are volunteering for their love of the game. Everyone from bottom to near the top is paying a fortune to keep their club afloat, not to mention the local sponsors many teams have... And the SAFA have that much in the bank? It's an abomination. The money should be reinvested into the AMATEUR game. Wether it's in the form of some Amateur only subsidised parks, wether its in a club set-up fund to help clubs establish in their first 2 seasons... Anything.

I think that clubs can be held to ransome by the SAFA in some of the financial aspects which must be adhered to... I see no reason why an alternative Football Assoc couldn't be set up and offer the same insurances, as the SAFA - granted, over a period of time. But to be honest, i'd much rather the 'beaks' / 'blazers' at the top just re-evaluated how they go about things. It's like a retired, outdated, unwanted government cabinet which we can't vote out.

I'm away to see the Panda's.

MB

I must admit I find it surprising that people do not want summer football yet they want to start the league in July? July is the worst month for ensuring people available since it's school holidays across th country.

Surely if sticking in an extra summer month to get a small winter shut down (which I presume is the point, rather than just making season longer) we should extend league into June and leave July for the holiday month?
If not changing to summer football I think just starting early we would be taking on most of the pains associated with summer football without getting all the benefits.

This has to be the best and also closest to how i feel about the SAFA/SFA i have paid since i was 14 to play ams football for this organisation to fail all its members



we are currently looking into ways to improve our game it wont happen in my lifetime as these dinosaurs take all our money and put nothing back into developing our facilities or lease with local councils to make sure they are doing the job that they are being paid to do



for years i spent a weekend playing football once a year in an FA sponsored tournament with all the stewards from all the grounds in England and the amount of money they have spent on helping their clubs develop grounds puts us to shame the last one i played at was Ipswich Town (they are paying a Scots family for the groundskeeper) they have a huge indoor 3G as well as about 20 Grass parks

Difficult subject to resolve, for the last three years we have probably played about 6 games between November and January, so maybe we should have a mid season break, starting the season early is already with us I would suggest, I would extend the season until the end of June, we cram everything into the short space of time between the clocks going forward and the end of May, the end of June coincides with the schools stopping, and leaves July free for the majority of people who take their annual fortnight at that time. There are no easy answers here, and 3G for all is in a far and distant future.

I am quite surprised nobody has agreed with my suggestion to drop a cup competition, I am new to the amateur game but the people I speak with that have been involved in the Amateur game for years agree that there are far too many cup games.

This in turn means Sat, Mon and Wed league games come the clocks changing in the "summer"!!

There aint no quick fix but starting the season a month earlier and with mid week league games and dropping a cup competition makes a lot of sense to me.

just saying lads.

BoabyG78. I have to disagree with you on this one, clubs in the lower leagues don't have much of a chance at winning any of the big two cups but the three local cups gives us all a chance at a trophy. Despite the poor result in the final I know we loved our run in the Donsports last season.
Maybe making all the divisions consist of ten teams would help with the too many games problem or perhaps the SAFA could use some of their huge fortune to get affordable prices for 3G pitches as for many clubs they are too expensive to use.

I agree with Dreggin in regards to cup competitions I am happy with what is there, 2 national, 2 local (Only in Donsport if put out the Ayrshire early on)
I also agree with AliB on finishing season late.

In regards to the money the SAFA have in their coffers, this is obviously a little of track to the original question, but what do you think 300k would actually provide? There are 55 teams in Ayrshire alone, and there are many associations, I dont know how many teams in total but would expect several hundred, so £300K wont go far.
From a quick search in internet a new full size 3G pitch would cost in the region of £500,00 - £650,000 per location, so the money does not stretch that far. they could blow their bank account and build us 1/2 a park? Maybe they need to increase fees so that we can get all the extra pitches eveyone wants. (Thats a joke) But seriously, i think they could reinvest that money but we have to be realistic on what it will do for ALL the SAFA associtation & Clubs, what does that actually equal per club?

A lot of the talk on here about all the SAFA's money demonstrates that there are a lot of people not really knowing what they are talking about.

If you look at just how much the SAFA actually has, it varies during the season from about £220,000 to £280,000 with the precise figure depending on when you look at it. For example, the annual fees come in around July/August so this will boost the amount and it will then fall back to lower figures when you start paying out rather than gather in.

But lets say for argument's sake that you had a reserve figure of £200,000. There are approximately 1500 clubs and every one of them has the same right to benefit from any handout as the other 1499. So you are talking in the region of £130 per club. Now I suppose every club would welcome a £130 windfall but its not going to be revolutionary and after you have dished it out the SAFA would be virtually bankrupt. In other words everyone has received a wee bit of very temporary help and emptied the coffers in the process.

If you decided to use the SAFA's bank balances to provide improved facilities, well I think The Mash has very effectively blasted that out of the water when he points out that the first 3G pitch stops at the half way line and we would need to wait maybe 10 years or more to build up enough funds to complete the other half. And, bearing in mind that the SAFA's money is "owned" by 1500 clubs from Gretna to the Shetlands, how do you imagine half a new park in maybe, Glasgow, Edinburgh or wherever benefits the guys in Annan and Kirkwall and Stornoway etc etc. I'm not saying you couldn't dream up a few ideas on using the SAFA "fortune" but its going to be very watery jam thinly spread!

Next lets look at the nonsense about all those "blazers" wallowing in the good life on SAFA Committees, not having a clue about the real world and:

According to Jay : "failing its members" Mind you its not surprising they have "failed" their members when as Muddyboots so diplomatically puts it they are "Like a retired, outdated, unwanted government cabinet which we can't vote out"

I've got news for you Muddyboots and anyone else who thinks the way you do : you can indeed vote "them" out. But I hope you have a wee army to replace us. Most of them, including me, are spending countless hours doing jobs that our younger friends won't touch with a barge pole. I'll even make you an offer just too good to refuse: drive down to Kilmarnock, pick up all the stuff taking up half a room here, cancel your social life for half the weekends in the year, get ready for inflated energy bills, sit on Committees dealing with eejits who can't even read the paperwork you send to them etc etc etc. Then go back home and sort out your referees for next weeks matches, send out the paperwork nobody reads then on Saturday sit in and hope you won't have to chase too many for results they forgot to phone in and then start all over again for the following week. And, Jay, there are dozens of us "failing our members" in exactly the same way. And before you remind me that I don't have to do it, which is true, ask yourself why we do it. Maybe we just like "failing our members"

Time some of you grew up, got off your arses and came back into the real world.

Fair enough lads, with regards to the cups outside the majors but do we really need another 3???

I totally understand but something needs to give, the 3 games a week for 5-6 weeks at the end of the season is no use to nobody.

On the note of money...

I have no idea how much a 3G park costs, didn't think it would b as much as £500k tho. But I do think some sort of reinvestment should be done. Just because theirs not enough to build a part or not enough to give every team a wee windfall doesn't mean it shouldnt be used! I like the idea of assisting new teams in year 1 or 2 helping them establish themselves. It fosters the growth of the game!

(this may already be getting done) but what about grants for different things? Maybe to help teams who have a high number of unemployed players? Or discounts for clubs which have more then one team? Anything to encourage the growth of the sport and assist teams...?

Dougie, personally I think new teams should be given mentors not money, give them the tools to run a club and they can continue to do so. I don't know about your league but when you look at the Ayrshire leagues it's not the new clubs that have gone down the drain over the last 5-10 years, it's the established clubs, so I see giving new clubs money as a waste of resource. Most of the clubs that have folded have not been due to money, yes it's a problem that everyone has but not necessarily the main reason teams fold, it's normally down to committee/management that's lost the will, or being unable to source reliable players and field a competitive team, and in my personal opinion there is more chance of getting some of these guys to train and play in June/July rather than December/January.

I would agree, reinvest where it makes sense, it was mandated that we all need 1st aiders, SAFA must have used some of their cash reserve when they provided these free of charge, these are the things that amount of money can do, I'm afraid without major government backing the pennies the SAFA have will not have much impact.
I have checked several sites and £500k is the cheapest I've seen.

As for the people having a good moan at SAFA guys, I have no reason to complain to some of the levels noted here. What I would say is I know how hard it is to run a team (A thing many of your own players fail to see) so I presume it's harder to manage a local association with 55 teams, let alone a national association with 1,500 teams. I would think if a valuable case was put to SAFA they would take it on board if it could be successfully implemented, think a lot of people have impossible expectations though.

Getting back on topic I would happily back a change to see the league starting August, having a winter shutdown and playing up to the end of June, giving July free for holiday season.

I know what you mean mash, my point was just the reinvestment in the money - my suggestions were just off the top of my head... More as ideas of how it could be reinvested, there must be hundreds of ways that the money can be reinvested.

Personally, summer football appeals to me. But the issue isn't just the associations, it's the councils too who would need to amend their own dates for the opening of parks. Wether this could be done across Scotland - I don't know.

As for 3G cost.. Wow. I really didn't think it would be that high!

Christ, be as well getting the safa to buy thousands of tarps and covering the parks!! Lol

One of the things clubs can look into is the sources of public funding. For example through the local Sports Councils. Most of our clubs don't even affiliate - the East Ayrshire Sports Council has ONE Ayrshire AFA club (Stewarton Annick) out of over 20 clubs based in the East Ayrshire area. I believe this has been a very useful way to get funding for many sports clubs but our clubs are not taking advantage of this . Have a look on your local authority web site for information.

Haha, tarps could work.

I agree with you on the council thing, I do believe though if the clubs wanted it and the SAFA drove it then we would be speaking as a football voice covering the whole country and that would make it difficult for councils to oppose, doing it individualy as you say would be very difficult. I think until a vote is held on it nationally there would no point seeking the council approval locally, the majority of associations have to want change.

The SAFA could use some of that resource to investigate and report back to clubs on the pros and cons of summer football for the clubs to then hold a vote knowing all the facts? I don't know all the facts so it would be interesting to know the facts.

I think another thread on what could be done to reinvest in the game could be good, I'm sure lots of people would have ideas?

Thanks Morris, we will get straight on that, now remove the post before Dreggin sees it and takes more from the fund pot!

Morris, to be fair I didn't say the money should be used to build new pitches, I probably put it clumsily but my idea was use some of it to pressure councils into making 3G pitches more affordable. I'm sure many others have ideas on what could be done with it (laser eye surgery for refs?) ok the last one was a joke but to be honest I don't see why the SAFA needs this amount of money.
As far as committee members and executive member go I don't know enough about the SAFA to comment but would say that at Ayrshire level I admire the time and effort that the committee puts in it's something I don't think I could do (can I pretty please get treated leniently at the next few meetings I'm up at for that lol)
Other suggestions from the top of my head, cut the entry fee to national competitions, subsidise Sports Injury courses, politically lbby local councils and holyrood for better facilities. This would eat into money I know but above the level of running costs and a suitable emergency fund why do the SAFA need to hold this amount of cash?
The Mash it wouldn't help we are a couple of mile over the border into East Ayrshire so it's all yours

Morris, We all know the work and countless hours you and the rest of the scottish and western executive put in and as far as im concerned you"s do the job to the best of your abilities but im sure every year when it comes to re-elections you"s guys put yourselves forward for the positions so to be re elected into your positions so if it was so much hassle and time consuming why put yourselves through this,if it was so bad im pretty sure other folk would take on the mantle.

Guvnor : I don't mind the hassle and giving up the time to do a job which I enjoy doing and which I volunteer for. But it gets a wee bit annoying when individuals who have probably little knowledge of what is involved come on here and start talking about those who administer amateur football as "failing their members" or being "Like a retired, outdated, unwanted government cabinet which we can't vote out". If its OK to attack people like me then it's surely only fair that I get the right of reply.

Most of that statement i can throw back at you but since you said it i will say this



the system of paperwork could be made obsolete as the way forward is online


all managers could do team sheets submit bookings ect ect if their was a format that allowed us to do so the thing you need to do is simplify everything